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luffy 747 Profile
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 03-2008
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 665
Karma: 10 (+15/-5)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


" QUOTE "

Adom wrote:
And I do wholly agree it's a weak reason to accept a faith, but whatever has a chance of changing someone's mind is worth putting out there. That's why I'm not like all those nutty religious people out there who seem to be offended by people who don't accept their arguments. Faith (or lack there of) is a very personal thing, and to each his/her own. The only thing that kind of bugs me is the type of people who don't believe in any God, and then act like all religious people are idiots who are too stupid to "understand" life and resort to beliefs as an easy solution.


its not a weak reason. it just isnt a reason. you wouldnt actually be picking the faith. you would be pretending to join it. and if it were on an off chance the "true" religion im sure what you would be doing would anger the "god(s)"


---
i am a boy so stop thinking the opposite.
9/26/2008, 9:42 pm Link to this post   
 
mindchaos Profile
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 08-2008
Posts: 334
Karma: 5 (+8/-3)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


" QUOTE "

Adom wrote:
The only thing that kind of bugs me is the type of people who don't believe in any God, and then act like all religious people are idiots who are too stupid to "understand" life and resort to beliefs as an easy solution.



You seem like a reasonable, open minded guy. So, just to make things clear, I mean no personal disrespect. If I diss religion, it is religion and not you in particular.

Hell is a pretty universal concept within differing religions. The dichotomy of the afterlife, usually heaven and hell, based on good vs evil, etc, with only minor differences from one religion to the next, is common. However, most religions are mutually exclusive. You save yourself from the hell that is spoken of in the religion you adhere to. This does not save you from the many other hells because you can't meet the requirements of each religion.

I'm sure that Tartarus is the least of your worries. When you understand how little of a threat this is to you, then you will understand why I don't fear such a thing as 'eternal damnation'.

Unfortunately (for you maybe), I am one of those people you mention. However, I was a fanatical (christian) believer during my teenage years, so I know what it is like to hold such beliefs. I don't think that religious people are stupid, but rather mistaken. Many fear to even begin thinking about different possibilities. I actually avoided any critical thinking on my part because I was told that it was sinful to doubt god!

The god concept is a powerful delusion that exists only within the minds of those who believe it. It is also so deeply ingrained in culture and has such a long history that it seems like a 'natural' part of life as it passes from blind parent to gullible child. Hold a belief long enough, and you become convinced.

Personally, I don't claim to understand life, it's actually one thing I don't believe there's an answer to, simply because there is no ultimate meaning focused on the human species other than .. survival and enjoying the time we have. I'm perfectly comfortable with "I don't know". So, in a sense, religion does offer "answers" (big quotation marks), no matter how far from reality they are, it's what comforts those who choose to believe.

So, I'm with you on this one, to each his/her own. Live and let live. The only times I do argue about such things is in a place meant for debate, or if somebody makes a blatantly ridiculous claim and nobody says a thing about it (happens a lot on Klocks). Or if someone is really preachy and doesn't get the "I'm an atheist" hint. For those who are very comfortable with their position and wont give it a second thought, no argument will ever change their minds.

---
Formerly known as RebornXmetalhead, Universal Migrator, etc..
9/26/2008, 11:35 pm Link to this post   
 
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 09-2008
Location: Canada and elsewhere too
Posts: 46
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


" QUOTE "

mindchaos wrote:

Hell is a pretty universal concept within differing religions. The dichotomy of the afterlife, usually heaven and hell, based on good vs evil, etc, with only minor differences from one religion to the next, is common. However, most religions are mutually exclusive. You save yourself from the hell that is spoken of in the religion you adhere to. This does not save you from the many other hells because you can't meet the requirements of each religion.



Well that's when you get into the stuff about the multi-leveled heavens and hells. There has to be varying degrees of reward and punishment, otherwise a priest who lives a completely pious life would get as much reward as a mass murder who repents... Personally, I think I've found my home in a middle grounds, because I know that I can't be better than what I am and survive in this life. I'm a good person, who lives cleanly and does what I can to be a good Muslim. At the same time, I don't know all the Arabic names, or all the Hadis traditions involved in my religion, but God is supposed to be all compassionate, and he's not going to throw you into hell for not speaking the language.

Within most religions, being a good person and doing good deeds is enough to get into heaven, which is really you need.

" QUOTE "


The god concept is a powerful delusion that exists only within the minds of those who believe it. It is also so deeply ingrained in culture and has such a long history that it seems like a 'natural' part of life as it passes from blind parent to gullible child. Hold a belief long enough, and you become convinced.



While it is true that most people believe in something simply because they're told to believe in it, that's also the main reason Agnosticism is such a hugely fast growing belief. People are, too often, told to believe in something unconditionally for reasons they're not told, and they eventually just lose faith. For me, I distanced myself from my religion, in an attempt to gain an impartial view of it, and ultimately chose to return to it with a stronger faith. The more I look into my own faith and even scrutinize it, the more I feel I've made the right choice and strengthen my belief in it. That's one of the things I like about Islam. Many skeptics end up converting, while few Muslims lose faith (compared to something like Christianity that is)
" QUOTE "



Personally, I don't claim to understand life, it's actually one thing I don't believe there's an answer to, simply because there is no ultimate meaning focused on the human species other than .. survival and enjoying the time we have. I'm perfectly comfortable with "I don't know". So, in a sense, religion does offer "answers" (big quotation marks), no matter how far from reality they are, it's what comforts those who choose to believe.



The trouble, I've seen with that kind of attitude, is how do you distinguish right from wrong? Compassion and generosity become far more subjective and you shouldn't feel bad about stomping on a child to boost yourself up. I always figured that if I didn't have religion, I would be wasted on so many drugs all the time life would always "feel" great (mainly because that's a decision I would have made in highschool, when I was young and dumb enough to do something like that). But the point remains, if life is just about enjoying the time we have, then what's stopping you from living a complete life of depravity and self-indulgence?


---
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening... unfortunately this wasn't it." - Groucho Marx
9/27/2008, 12:56 pm Link to this post   
 
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 08-2008
Posts: 334
Karma: 5 (+8/-3)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


" QUOTE "

Adom wrote:
Well that's when you get into the stuff about the multi-leveled heavens and hells. There has to be varying degrees of reward and punishment, otherwise a priest who lives a completely pious life would get as much reward as a mass murder who repents... Personally, I think I've found my home in a middle grounds, because I know that I can't be better than what I am and survive in this life. I'm a good person, who lives cleanly and does what I can to be a good Muslim. At the same time, I don't know all the Arabic names, or all the Hadis traditions involved in my religion, but God is supposed to be all compassionate, and he's not going to throw you into hell for not speaking the language.



Problem: lack of evidence for any of this, it is (obviously) faith-based, and this is where we most likely disagree on what Truth is.
What if I tell you that the pious priest devoted his entire life to a lie, which might have brought him joy or sadness, but in the end, he dies like every other living being. The repenting mass murderer already lost his sense of reason for putting an end to so many lives, and so "repenting" doesn't really mean anything. What they share in common is that neither of them will exist one day, both will have lived their lives and ended it by decomposing in the ground.

" QUOTE "

Within most religions, being a good person and doing good deeds is enough to get into heaven, which is really you need.



Not when you literally follow every word. There's usually a great deal of particular devotion and ritual that moderates ignore. I take it you're far from being an extremist (you're pretty chill with your beliefs, so that's cool).

" QUOTE "

While it is true that most people believe in something simply because they're told to believe in it, that's also the main reason Agnosticism is such a hugely fast growing belief. People are, too often, told to believe in something unconditionally for reasons they're not told, and they eventually just lose faith. For me, I distanced myself from my religion, in an attempt to gain an impartial view of it, and ultimately chose to return to it with a stronger faith. The more I look into my own faith and even scrutinize it, the more I feel I've made the right choice and strengthen my belief in it. That's one of the things I like about Islam. Many skeptics end up converting, while few Muslims lose faith (compared to something like Christianity that is)



Agnosticism is the refusal to make a claim about the insoluble. God is insoluble. So is the invisible pink unicorn. Contrary to the commonly held view that agnostics are undecided about the existence of a god, they rather just don't even bother taking a stance.

I'd like to know about those skeptics you speak of. Do you mean the kind that doubts what you say at first but still has no skill at critical thinking?
The way I see it, few muslims lose faith because... well !@#$, they're struck with fear. Every religion has its strong points in history.

" QUOTE "

The trouble, I've seen with that kind of attitude, is how do you distinguish right from wrong? Compassion and generosity become far more subjective and you shouldn't feel bad about stomping on a child to boost yourself up. I always figured that if I didn't have religion, I would be wasted on so many drugs all the time life would always "feel" great (mainly because that's a decision I would have made in highschool, when I was young and dumb enough to do something like that). But the point remains, if life is just about enjoying the time we have, then what's stopping you from living a complete life of depravity and self-indulgence?



One mistake you're making is assuming that morality is of divine origin. I do not have a "right and wrong" concept imposed against my will by some sky god I have no belief in. I have a moral and ethical system based on the fact that I don't want to cause others harm. Empathy, it's our human condition.

You use religion as a crutch, as you've admitted you would be fucked up without it. I did that in the past. If fear of an invisible being is what keeps people from turning into crazy !@#$, that's sad.

---
Formerly known as RebornXmetalhead, Universal Migrator, etc..
9/27/2008, 9:07 pm Link to this post   
 
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C8H10N4O2

Registered: 05-2008
Location: Germany, Bonn
Posts: 5462
Karma: 48 (+59/-11)
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Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


im a muslim who lost faith, its kinda more difficult as the familiy is really, really pissed of about that, opposed to nonextremist christian believers.


Last edited by dreaddino, 9/28/2008, 3:06 am


---
" QUOTE "

burnin lion wrote:

if someone has an abortion they sacrifice their soul


9/28/2008, 3:06 am Link to this post   
 
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 06-2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 18456
Karma: 235 (+283/-48)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


 emoticon

---

9/28/2008, 6:50 am Link to this post   
 
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 08-2008
Posts: 334
Karma: 5 (+8/-3)
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Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


That's interesting dreaddino, I had no idea. When did you first tell your family?

---
Formerly known as RebornXmetalhead, Universal Migrator, etc..
9/28/2008, 7:32 am Link to this post   
 
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 07-2008
Location: I don't know
Posts: 1891
Karma: 28 (+35/-7)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


" QUOTE "

mindchaos wrote:


Agnosticism is the refusal to make a claim about the insoluble...Contrary to the commonly held view that agnostics are undecided about the existence of a god, they rather just don't even bother taking a stance.




...uh isn't that "apatheism" or apathetic agnosticism?

---
"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy...in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, and music."
-John Adams
9/28/2008, 10:16 am Link to this post   
 
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 09-2008
Location: Canada and elsewhere too
Posts: 46
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


" QUOTE "

mindchaos wrote:

" QUOTE "

Adom wrote:
Well that's when you get into the stuff about the multi-leveled heavens and hells. There has to be varying degrees of reward and punishment, otherwise a priest who lives a completely pious life would get as much reward as a mass murder who repents... Personally, I think I've found my home in a middle grounds, because I know that I can't be better than what I am and survive in this life. I'm a good person, who lives cleanly and does what I can to be a good Muslim. At the same time, I don't know all the Arabic names, or all the Hadis traditions involved in my religion, but God is supposed to be all compassionate, and he's not going to throw you into hell for not speaking the language.



Problem: lack of evidence for any of this, it is (obviously) faith-based, and this is where we most likely disagree on what Truth is.
What if I tell you that the pious priest devoted his entire life to a lie, which might have brought him joy or sadness, but in the end, he dies like every other living being. The repenting mass murderer already lost his sense of reason for putting an end to so many lives, and so "repenting" doesn't really mean anything. What they share in common is that neither of them will exist one day, both will have lived their lives and ended it by decomposing in the ground.



Of course there's lack of evidence of Hell. That's what faith is, accepting "truths" based on "evidences" (miracles and prophets and whatnot) that are defined in the religion. I was was making the point of multi-leveled reward and punishment as a response to your idea of only saving yourself from one religions hell by being pious.

Even if a Catholic priest is part of the "wrong" religion, he's still a good person, clean, and virtuous. Many (if not most) religions will accept him as not being as evil as a mass murder.

If there is no hell, then yes, they're both at the exact same place when they die, which was kind of my point on the morality of the non-religious.

" QUOTE "


Not when you literally follow every word. There's usually a great deal of particular devotion and ritual that moderates ignore. I take it you're far from being an extremist (you're pretty chill with your beliefs, so that's cool).



It is true that every religion has it's particulars, but usually it's not necessary to be that devout unless you can have a faith so strong that you don't even need to live this life. The trouble, I see, with the perception of Islam is that it's more strict than other religions, but that's not really true. There are basically five acts you must to do be considered a Muslim, and seven sins to avoid if you want to stay out of hell. As long as you obey those few rules (which are mostly defined by the "human condition's" sense of morality) then you're fine in the eyes of Allah.

I like to take dreadlocks as an example. A "proper" Muslim should be clean-cut, with his hair shaved short, facial hair well-groomed, and even his armpit and pubic hair trimmed neatly. But I don't think St. Peter is sitting up at the pearly gates with his arms folded waiting to say, "I'm sorry, you ain't gettin' in with that haircut."

" QUOTE "


Agnosticism is the refusal to make a claim about the insoluble. God is insoluble. So is the invisible pink unicorn. Contrary to the commonly held view that agnostics are undecided about the existence of a god, they rather just don't even bother taking a stance.



Alright, I"m not sure the exact definition of any of the names given to every school of thought, but you catch my drift. Nowadays, most people tend to believe in a God, but have little faith in their religions and become jaded to all of them.

" QUOTE "


I'd like to know about those skeptics you speak of. Do you mean the kind that doubts what you say at first but still has no skill at critical thinking?
The way I see it, few muslims lose faith because... well !@#$, they're struck with fear. Every religion has its strong points in history.



The skeptics I mean are people who specifically attack Islam, based on what they see on the news. Often times they talk to Islamic clergy or actually read the Quaran themselves and run out of arguments or even convert themselves.

In those "Islamic" countries like Iraq and Iran, people are afraid, but that stuff is a complete other story (too much politics and ignorance mixed in with their faiths). I mainly meant people in North America. My father was originally a loose Muslim. His father was Islamic so he was. But as his life progressed, his faith didn't fade, but actually grew to the point where he's now practically an Imam (priest). Of course it does happen that Muslims lose their faith, but again, it's all very personal. I think the important thing is that the religion is always growing, at a significant rate, in nations that aren't run by political Muslims.

" QUOTE "


One mistake you're making is assuming that morality is of divine origin. I do not have a "right and wrong" concept imposed against my will by some sky god I have no belief in. I have a moral and ethical system based on the fact that I don't want to cause others harm. Empathy, it's our human condition.

You use religion as a crutch, as you've admitted you would be fucked up without it. I did that in the past. If fear of an invisible being is what keeps people from turning into crazy !@#$, that's sad.



Again, this is where personal matters come into play. I don't believe there really is any "human condition" since everyone is different. There are countless horrible people out in the world who have no Empathy, or who have been scorned by other people so much in the past, they don't care what happens to them, or specifically hate other people. True that many people won't become psychotic murderers just because they don't fear God, but people like me, who've been on the fringe wouldn't have anything to guide them back onto the "straight and narrow." And it sounds like there are a lot of people on that fringe who find God.

(Speaking of fringe, and on a less strong point, there are still a lot of people who need God to keep them together. Isn't it better they join a faith than some suicide cult? And yes, I know many crazy cults are based on religion, but usually it's such a chopped up and bastardized version of the religion that it could be anything really.)

Ooh ooh, and another thing. How can you really be sure that your own morality set isn't indirectly based on religion? Many laws, and even things that are considered "wrong" by governments and people in general are based on what was defined by society as being wrong. But those definitions were originally based on religion when they were first written. Take something like bribery. In Canada and the U.S. it's considered wrong but in Mexico it's considered standard practice. Same thing with adultery. What really carved the basis for what's right and wrong?

---
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening... unfortunately this wasn't it." - Groucho Marx
9/28/2008, 11:59 am Link to this post   
 
mindchaos Profile
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KnottyLocks.Tk

Registered: 08-2008
Posts: 334
Karma: 5 (+8/-3)
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Re: Cure Negativity, Spread Love and Hope


" QUOTE "

Mahavishnu009 wrote:
...uh isn't that "apatheism" or apathetic agnosticism?



Oh I didn't say that they didn't care. The god concept cannot be proven or disproven, therefor they will not take a stance. Like... do you consciously adopt a stance concerning the invisible pink unicorn? The majority of us would discredit that right away because it's ridiculous, but the fact that it's invisible makes it insoluble - there is no way of actually knowing.

---
Formerly known as RebornXmetalhead, Universal Migrator, etc..
9/28/2008, 7:48 pm Link to this post   
 


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